Curse

Aeon221 · Feb 08, 2007, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Let's be honest: GW is not that great of a single player game.

I liked pugging as little as the next guy back in the day, but it was nice to have at least the option. Sometimes you just want to chat with new people while taking down a quest, or killing the Lich for the 1337th time.

And even things like the Monk Strike in THK, though obnoxious, added to the immersion value and made other players a significant part of the game.

Pugging is now, currently, almost impossible. Better players, myself included, now hero their way through the game at breakneck pace, leaving the poor dumb masses, like my younger brother, stranded in the early areas without hope. Previously, better players would put up with pugs because the henches were too low level, or too poorly built to guarantee success. Now it is our fellow humans who are the liability, as it is likely that the fellow begging for a pug is someone who can no longer find others to carry him through the game.

This needs to be fixed because, as I said at the top, this is not all that great of a single player game.

The simplest way to do so would be to bugger with drops, and to inform players that this has indeed occurred.

This may be confusing and counterintuitive to those who believe that killing stuff in an area shows more skill, and deserves greater reward. I say, bully for you, but stuff it.

1) Gold drops grant the stated amount of the drop to all players, and is not split amongst them. As in, a drop of 80g grants everyone in the party 80g.

2) The drop rate of everything increases for each player with every additional player in the party. Therefore, a player alone has the worst possible drop rate, and players in a group, despite being in a group, have a better chance of drops individually.

Example: Moe the Burrito Monster will drop a Burrito 1% of the time for each party member in a party of size one, but 10% of the time for each party member in a party size of eight. It is also possible that everyone in the party gets a Burrito on a single run (although the odds of that actually occurring in said scenario are .1^8)

3) The quality of drops improve with each player added to the group.

Example: If a single player entered an instance and killed everything, he would get maybe one gold item. If a group of eight players entered an instance and killed everything, they would get maybe two gold items each.

4) Heroes would negatively affect drop rate, so that a person alone gets better drops than a person with heroes.

My proposal is that players should benefit monetarily from grouping, and should be forced to pay a premium for playing alone, or with henches. It would still be possible to solo farm, although it would probably go out of fashion due to the low drop rate.

Could this be abused? Yes. Is that a bad thing? Yes. Do I consider the benefits worth the agency risks? Yes. Measures such as the ones I proposed above would increase both the quality and quantity of groups, as many players would probably decide that a higher rate of drops compensates them for time lost in gathering and prepping a pug.

In any event, these ideas fully utilize substitution effect to change aggregate behavior, and should result in an overall shift towards the desired behavior.

cellardweller · Feb 08, 2007, 07:48 AM // 07:48

/unsigned
People play how they want to and shouldn't be disadvantaged for doing so.

Meat Axe · Feb 08, 2007, 08:17 AM // 08:17

i disagree with your entire argument. I think that basically what you're suggesting is to try and force players to play with other people because of the prospect of getting more items. And this is basically discrimination against players who actually prefer to play by themselves. I am one of them, and I keep seeing all these posts on why we should be forced to play in groups with real people. If so many of you agree on this, what the hell is the problem?

If they added this in, I think there'd be a huge outcry from all the people who do prefer to play alone, because you're basically discriminating against a certain group, who prefers a certain gaming style. So in other words, don't.

Aeon221 · Feb 08, 2007, 09:05 AM // 09:05

There is currently discrimination against grouping. Your arguments are in favor of punishing the many to preserve the interests of the few.

This is simple Pareto Efficiency. The many who benefit would be more than capable of compensating whatever few there are who have genuinely lost out.

In no way am I demanding the punishment of solo-ers. You would still be allowed to repeat the same banal routes ad nauseum with the same stale builds as often as you like. You would simply be asked to do it more frequently, rather than less. Surely this is a benefit for those who enjoy this style of play?

rohara · Feb 08, 2007, 09:12 AM // 09:12

/notsigned

saying goodbye to PUGs was a happy day in my life

The Silver Star · Feb 08, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Well to put it simply. Guild Wars is now an RPG with titles where you can show off your grinding titles in Ouposts with other people who play. I appreciate what yuor trying to do but Guild Wars isnt on the up its on the down. Heroes should of neve been introduced they promote solo play to team play in PvE and titles promote grind but dont give any benifit to the player and are not enjoyable to grind for all you get is the chance to say "omg noob i have PKM hahaha you see that? people KNOW me!!! haha brb going to text my mum tell her how leet i am im 26!!!"

Nice effort but sadly GW is now an RPG with title and outposts to show them off in.

Milennin · Feb 08, 2007, 09:41 AM // 09:41

/signed

PUGing is much more fun than playing with henchmen, but it's often too hard to find enough players to form a good party for a mission. If they'd add these changes it would probably make it much easier to find enough players for missions.=D

cellardweller · Feb 08, 2007, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

There is currently discrimination against grouping. Your arguments are in favor of punishing the many to preserve the interests of the few.

There is no discrimination currently - You receive exactly the same benefits for grouping people as you do for using henchies. Your proposal institues exactly what you profess to remove.

Aeon221 · Feb 08, 2007, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

/notsigned

saying goodbye to PUGs was a happy day in my life

I don't think you read the post. At no point did I say that PUGs should be the only option.

What I did say was that players should incur an economic loss for choosing to play with AI companions only, and an economic benefit for playing with human players.

I am suggesting that Anet reward players for putting up with one another. How is this at all at odds with your desire to not pug?

Puliver · Feb 08, 2007, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Maybe there should be some points for playing with players and you can obtain something for those points. Something valuable so you are motivated to do so. You know there must be motivation but you can not force people to do so. I think this will do a improvement in player grouping. Something like faction points but you can buy something for that.

Meat Axe · Feb 08, 2007, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Okay, perhaps my last post was a slight exaggeration. I guess that soloers do have slightly more of an advantage in terms of drops. But that's the whole point in solo farming. It certainly shouldn't be changed to something on the scale of 2 gold drops for each member of a party when soloers only get 1. That's 16 times more gold drops for parties, and that's just a ridiculous amount.

Also, I think that heroes were one of the best things to be added to the game. I can now have a minion master while my brother isn't around, an interrupt ranger whose reaction is much better than any real person could have. I completely agree with rohera, that PUGing is now a completely optional aspect, and i think the game is much better for it. As for the titles, I think they are a good thing to aim for. Those of us who don't like farming all the time when we've finished the game, or doing the elite missions over and over, have titles to complete.

Finally, through all the threads related to this, there are a significant number of people who say that heroes are crap, PUGing forced/made shinier in some way. Why don't you start a thread to gather all people who like PUGing, instead of constantly trying to think up ways to make soloers prefer PUGs?

Aeon221 · Feb 08, 2007, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

There is no discrimination currently - You receive exactly the same benefits for grouping people as you do for using henchies. Your proposal institues exactly what you profess to remove.

I'm going to call BS on this statement.

Currently, I can choose PUG or hero.

If PUG then I have to deal with the idiocy of my compatriots, their lack of unlocks, and their far slower reaction time.

If Hero, I get to use the fact that I am UAS/UAX to my advantage in crafting a team of high powered, organized, and incredibly responsive allies.

As is obvious to anyone who has ever played the game, the risk of mission failure due to pugs is far higher than the risk of mission failure due to hero-way due to these very factors.

I am asking that there be compensation for that risk, as is only logical.

Aeon221 · Feb 08, 2007, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meat Axe

Okay, perhaps my last post was a slight exaggeration. I guess that soloers do have slightly more of an advantage in terms of drops. But that's the whole point in solo farming. It certainly shouldn't be changed to something on the scale of 2 gold drops for each member of a party when soloers only get 1. That's 16 times more gold drops for parties, and that's just a ridiculous amount.

Also, I think that heroes were one of the best things to be added to the game. I can now have a minion master while my brother isn't around, an interrupt ranger whose reaction is much better than any real person could have. I completely agree with rohera, that PUGing is now a completely optional aspect, and i think the game is much better for it. As for the titles, I think they are a good thing to aim for. Those of us who don't like farming all the time when we've finished the game, or doing the elite missions over and over, have titles to complete.

Finally, through all the threads related to this, there are a significant number of people who say that heroes are crap, PUGing forced/made shinier in some way. Why don't you start a thread to gather all people who like PUGing, instead of constantly trying to think up ways to make soloers prefer PUGs?

I threw those numbers out there at random, so why waste time attacking them?

As is obvious, I am _not_ demanding the removal of heroes or the elimination of solo farm.

I simply ask that people who pug be compensated for the higher risk of mission failure due to pugging, and be rewarded for seeking out community in an online game.

The Silver Star · Feb 08, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

WOOT

Ok i just got the best idea for making people PUG in missions that is:

Masters reward/Mission bonus can only be achieved in a party containing more than 50% human players.

cellardweller · Feb 08, 2007, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

I'm going to call BS on this statement.

Currently, I can choose PUG or hero.

If PUG then I have to deal with the idiocy of my compatriots, their lack of unlocks, and their far slower reaction time.

If Hero, I get to use the fact that I am UAS/UAX to my advantage in crafting a team of high powered, organized, and incredibly responsive allies.

As is obvious to anyone who has ever played the game, the risk of mission failure due to pugs is far higher than the risk of mission failure due to hero-way due to these very factors.

I am asking that there be compensation for that risk, as is only logical.

Are you honestly trying to say that AI are better than people? Go observer mode and count how many heroway guilds are in gvg. If ai is so much moe effective than humans why aren't they used more in the highest levels of the game?

Estic · Feb 08, 2007, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Even thought I would like it if Pugging would get an increased award, I'm afraid this isn't the best way to do it.

Instead of solo farm we would have Guild farm. Eight players who know exactly what they do form up and slaughter the enemies. This would net them even more than a solo farmer. I fear for great exploitation.

I think getting pugging back on the map might happen with the introduction of Hard Mode. A good idea would be to make it impossible to do hard mode with henchies (mind you, henchies nog heroes). This would force people to at least play with one other person while not forcing them to have to wait for 8 players to simultaniously be in the same district and sharing the same aim.

Aeon221 · Feb 08, 2007, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Are you honestly trying to say that AI are better than people? Go observer mode and count how many heroway guilds are in gvg. If ai is so much moe effective than humans why aren't they used more in the highest levels of the game?

I am tired of repeating myself for you over and over, so I'm just going to make this simple.

I did not indicate at any point that PvE = GvG, or any other form of PvP.

Nor did I indicate that Heros are superior to r9+ UAS/UAX humans who are coordinated through vent/ts.

What I did indicate was this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

If [I take heroes], I get to use the fact that I am UAS/UAX to my advantage in crafting a team of high powered, organized, and incredibly responsive allies.

Which means exactly what it says, and nothing more.

Aeon221 · Feb 08, 2007, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estic

Even thought I would like it if Pugging would get an increased award, I'm afraid this isn't the best way to do it.

Instead of solo farm we would have Guild farm. Eight players who know exactly what they do form up and slaughter the enemies. This would net them even more than a solo farmer. I fear for great exploitation.

I think getting pugging back on the map might happen with the introduction of Hard Mode. A good idea would be to make it impossible to do hard mode with henchies (mind you, henchies nog heroes). This would force people to at least play with one other person while not forcing them to have to wait for 8 players to simultaniously be in the same district and sharing the same aim.

I covered this issue in my OP. In fact, I put it at the end to increase the likelihood of it being read, since most people skip the middle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

Could this be abused? Yes. Is that a bad thing? Yes. Do I consider the benefits worth the agency risks? Yes. Measures such as the ones I proposed above would increase both the quality and quantity of groups, as many players would probably decide that a higher rate of drops compensates them for time lost in gathering and prepping a pug.

To expand on this, even if people do decide to farm in groups of 8 instead of solo, this has the advantage of getting them to play together. More importantly, it is more difficult to arrange for 8 people to gather together in one place for an event than it is for one person to decide to do something and do it.

While there might still be a net gain, I doubt it will be a large one.

EDIT: Then again, I also doubted that anyone would dance the Macarena.

Lonesamurai · Feb 08, 2007, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

There is currently discrimination against grouping.

No there isn't, join a guild and your mission success rate jumps 150% at least (estimate based on guild cohesiveness and organization that guilding brings to groups, the figure then rises another 100% or so if Vent/TS usage comes into play)

(and yes, I pulled the figures out of my ass, but the general idea is sound!)

Join, a Guild! Fight the good Fight! Your Country needs you!

cellardweller · Feb 08, 2007, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

Nor did I indicate that Heros are superior to r9+ UAS/UAX humans who are coordinated through vent/ts.
.

Then allow me to quote your line

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

If Hero, I get to use the fact that I am UAS/UAX to my advantage in crafting a team of high powered, organized, and incredibly responsive allies..

This whole argument sounds to me like you are upset that all the other children don't want to play with "your little brother" and you want teacher to make them sit in detention until they do.